american 'traditions' ?

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

ok, this discussion was brought up by marty almost jokingly over my 21st birthday dinner thingy with my grandparents. they were talking about american culture, whether or not we had traditions, etc. now i can't really explain marty's position, but i thought it was a neat thought, and wanted to talk about it.

so. we're american, we have a culture. our culture is, basically to envelope and fold in people's cultures who move here making it part of our own. now, there have been problems, obviously, and a big topic of discussion would be whether or not this assimilation is a good thing. i say it is. some people value culture, specifically their own, above all else, some to the point of worship. the japanese are a pretty famous for this, the view that their culture is pure, and that none or as good or better than them. my problem with a viewpoint like this goes something along the lines of, well, it's all well and good that you value your culture, but here in the US, we have a policy of equality. no one's better than any other, so why should we not assimlate other cultural traditions? by saying "this one isn't good enough but this one is" is makeing legal barriers for certain people, making them an inferior part simply by creating a separation. you'll see this argument pop up in a couple other problems i have with policies around here in the US, but we'll leave that like it is 'til i get a chance to write more topics.

[Asaeroth]

My position was that each culture had its own strengths, and in the use of all curltures in their seperate forms, it is more effective than in gathering all together and melding them into a 'meaningless' mish-mash of peoples, who have no real past, as a whole.

It is the memory of the people, and the pride of the people that gives strength to a country, not the force of arms or masses of land.

My grandmother was not pleased.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

the problem here, marty, is that we have too many people with memories here. we have people from just about everywhere in the world here, if each one of these cultures keeps it's own distinct pride, then we have a nation hopelessly divided and squabbling about useless things. for one, the culture we have, however mish-mash it may seem to you, it far from pointless. we are a nation, as i said, of many cultures, and each has contributed to what we are today. Because we are a nation of immigrants, if we were to all keep our pride in our own personal national identity, we would have...well, what we have now. people need to realize that, because we live in america, that IS your national identity, granted, like you marty, people can subscribe to other nations cultures for guidance(japan for you, good choice by the way), you are still an american, and being american, you also represent(supposedly, accoding to our constitution) freedom from persecution, intolerance, and bigotry. is there a better way to ensure this but to meld each individual culture into one large one that is a sort of mishmash, but allows all people to identify with it? an attempt to keep all cultures within us separate is, largely, futile.

as for masses of arms and land? you're right...sort of, that that doesn't give nations power. but it's certainly not the pride of the people. Nazi Germans and Italians under mussolini were some of the most nationalistic nations of the world to date, and yet, not only did they lose their wars, but tehy also ended up commiting huge numbers of atrocities as well, because they way they viewed the world was such that their culture was so much better than others, they MUST bring the german culture to the rest of the world, and those that resist obviously are lesser peoples....nationalism can get you into a lot of trouble sir.

[Drychnath]

Asal said:

My position was that each culture had its own strengths, and in the use of all curltures in their seperate forms, it is more effective than in gathering all together and melding them into a 'meaningless' mish-mash of peoples, who have no real past, as a whole.

It is the memory of the people, and the pride of the people that gives strength to a country, not the force of arms or masses of land.

My grandmother was not pleased.

Hmm. Interesting points. I'm afraid I have to disagree with all of them. If gathering all cultures into one culture was an innefective and weakening trend, the United States would not be the preeminent power in the world. And if the people's pride and memory rendered a nation strong, then the former Yugoslav nations might actually mean a damn thing to the rest of the world. Who do they matter to, in the end? To the UN, as a casefile on human rights violations. To their neighbors as a continuing source of disruption and conflict. And to the United States, as contributor nations to our own immigrated population.

And if your grandmother was really that displeased, your family would likely enough not be here today.

The United States is thus far the ultimate expression of strength and power. People such as you believe we do this despite our diversity - I submit that diversity is the reason. Japan is a single people; we are all peoples. Other cultures have strengths and weaknesses; all strengths are ours to claim, and our weaknesses are either figmentary or meaningless beside our greatness.

The reason for our strength through diversity is simple; in our system, all conflicts through diversity strengthen it. Democracy, when combined with an emphasis on the individual, is dependant on conflict; furthermore, it is dependant on domestic conflict. Every time a White Supremacist speaks for the purity of caucasian America, every time a disaffected teenager fascinated with socialism denounces the corrupt capitalist elitists, we are he stronger for it. Yes, they speak idiocy; and yes, they speak against our own ideals; but how better to demonstrate the truth and power of our system then to have such taking place within it? The failure of trying to beat us through playing by our rules is that you are now playing by our rules, and merely having you in the game means we win. No other system in the world is so thoroughly vindicated by opposition. Let our various internal cultures simmer, or let them fuse; all serves our ends.

Furthermore, we have been for a half-century the cultural and political touchstone for the entire world; there is no level of human interaction through which our ideology cannot be transmitted. The faster information and ideas flow, the stronger our influence grows, and now the world as a whole is conforming, even unwittingly, to systems rendering them more receptive to us. Even a nation so diametrically opposed to us as China grows further within our domain. They adopt every year an increasingly capitalist economy, and the government looses its strictures on information for its citizenry.

In the last, it is true that even we are not flawless. We have in our history many black marks, the result of departures from our own ideals as Americans. The near extermination of Native Americans, slavery, poor treatment of the Irish immigrant population, and the various civil rights denied minorities until the sixties are all examples. One could take note of the timeline, however. In the first, a segment of our own populace is enslaved. Then we treat poorly those who come in and nearly exterminate those outside, but free our populace. Then we begin to better welcome those from outside, but still have inequalities amongst our own populace. And then we rectify this problem, in turn. What does this indicate? Continuing refinement of our system, to suit our ideals. Our progress in this arena is continuing and inevitable. In this respect also we shine. In ancient times, Rome shone like a beacon, spreading the light of civilization across the world. When she was extinguished, the Church took up her torch, and smaller lights were wielded by Rome's successor nations. Now the Church has passed from secular influence, and a younger bearer holds the light of mankind. Our millennia of service in holding the torch of what has become freedom is far from over. Our American ideals and our American traditions have an anchor and a symbol who will remain for our thousand years; she stands on Ellis Island.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

wow Blough, i had no idea you were such a great propagandist. *shakes head in amazement* i never thought i'd hear such words of praise coming from you for our nation...i'd argue or soemthing, but i'm simply stunned. *blinks*

[Tharnex]

omgomgomg..truely insightful...that was one of the best reads i have ever read. Not only does it answer the question fully, it make me feel a sense of overwhelming and undying pride for our great nation. Blough you should be president.....my vote is for you! [When i actually get around to voting that is:)]

[Arcadian]

*copy, paste into txt file* Masterful work, Blough. I am very impressed and the anthropologist in me quivers with warm fuzziness.

[DarkNeopagan]

very articulate, you should join military psyops. all they do is manipulate people to their cause. and on the subject of freedoms, everyone should be happy they have the right to speak out against the country they take for granted everyday. you should have seen iraq two years ago. one of the most depressing sights i have ever seen. there were NO freedoms there, you could be aressted and killed on a whim. now they are getting ready to hold their first elections. granted they are far from done fixing their system, it's far, far better than they were.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

umm, i'm not arguing about freedoms or anything like that. i'm arguing that, when someone comes here, they should be expected to merge their culture with ours, a separation within our culture, whether legal or just generally accepted, is just asking for discrimination and trouble. "separate is not equal"

[Tharnex]

sigh....Ben, they shoudl not be expected to do something liek that. They have their own free will. in our constution it says nothing about immigrants having to pay a due, a due that is paid for with their culture. As long as they find happyness here and become a productive member of our society then they shoudl be allow to merge or decide not to merge as they see fit. Seperate is not equal like you said but this is culture we are talking about here, you cannot compare one culture to another and say that it is better than the other. what might have worked in a different era might not work now.
Culture as i see it, from an american point of view that is, is different for each region. Some region have culture that spans centuries and some like ours(American) are constanly changing because it is being written as we speak. The culture in the 1950's is not the same culture as it is today, emphasis has be relocated from the golden age when communism was a threat and 2.5 kids, a stay at home mom, and a nice mom was standard to the technological age where information, the defeat of Terrorism and Global Democracy is the goal.

[Pike]

Kinda like giant radioactive rubber pants

[Drychnath]

I think the value of American tradition lies in knowledge regarding our Constitution. When it comes right down to it, the Constitution of the United States is the thing all Americans share, regardless of any other consideration. It is what grants us our freedoms, simultaneously providing a common touchstone while allowing us to maintain our individual cultural pasts. Through this document are the ley lines of all peoples drawn to a singular point, and then cast upward to shine as these United States.