why be athiest when you can be objectivist?

[shanksjp]

not believing in a higher being is fine and all, but... why not believe in the greatness of man while you're at it? objectivism might be right up your alley, check out Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead, even if only from the library.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

i have 'em, but...why should i believe that man is anything more that any other living thing? yes we've created civilization, culture, art, etc. but...we're still just mammals, animals driven by our urges. what makes us any different?

[shanksjp]

we are mammals, yes, but we also have achieved reason. to quote Ayn Rand's "The Objectivist Ethics",

"...just as animals would not be able to survive by attempting the method of plants, by...waiting for the soil to feed them-- so men cannot survive by attempting the methods of animals, by rejecting reason and counting on productive men to serve as their prey.
"...An animal's life consists of a series of separate cycles, repeated over and over again, such as the cycle of breeding..., or of storing food for the winter; an animal's consciousness cannot integrate its entire lifespan; it can carry just so far, then the animal has to begin the cycle all over again... Man's life is a continuous whole: for good or evil, every day, year and devade of his life holds the sum of all the days behind him. ... He is free to change the direction of his course..."

etc, etc.

man is not just an animal.

[Drychnath]

Mankind's greatness feeds very well into the given faiths. All the monotheistic ones, at least, claim us as said higher being's most favored and greatest creation.

Though I disagree with Rand in general, I agree we most certainly are more than animals. Humanity alone, of all things in this world, is possessed of ambition.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

that's...not true there buddy. there are a lot of animals that aspire to what can be described as ambition. wolves, the alpha wolf, leader of the pack, only one that actually fathers the young. ambition? i do believe so. Lions have leaders of hte pack. most pack hunters i've heard of have "leaders of the pack." is this not ambition? a fight for power? the ability to be the only one to father young is quite a power if you ask me. however, i do agree that men are driven by a lust for power.

"psychologists should bethink themselves before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. a living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength--life itself is will to power; self preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results thereof."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

i agree with him. and, like him, and as i said above, i don't see that ambition is entirely limited to human-kind, we just, rather than having the natural faculties to achieve dominance, we have to use other, man-made means. creativity, created weapons, etc. these are all means to an ends.

[Pike]

And don’t forget we breed like rabbits. ;D

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

and that.

[Physicles]

I gotta hand it to the objectivists. If I weren't Christian, I'd probably be objectivist.

But why be objectivist when you can be Christian? Man is great only because he's made in the image of his creator. Why worship something finite and imperfect when you can worship something infinite and holy? I can't always trust myself or the human race. I can always trust God.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

can you please explain to me why everyone insists that man is so much greater than any other animal? i just...dont' get it.

[shanksjp]

man is greater than animals because man is capable of reason. man is capable of living beyond the immediate moment. in fact, man is -incapable- of living strictly for the immediate moment; he must live his life with the long-term in mind.

man is capable of productivity, of trade, of skilled work and of creativity. I'd love to see a wolf paint a Monet, or compose a symphony.

wolves and lions strive to be the leader of the pack, the alpha male, through natural selection. being the leader means breeding rights, which means the strong genes get passed down. the alpha males raise the young because they know best how to survive, therefore their "training" (for lack of a better word) is superior to the "training" that other wolves could provide. so it is not "ambition" that drives animals to be the leader of the pack, so much as the genetic drive to pass on their bloodline.

[Asaeroth]

But how do you know there is no creator, how do you know there is one? If there is no proof either way, how can ANY of you be sure? Why debate objectivism or atheism when you can't even find out that simple question? Why worry so much about something that really ISN'T important, when you may face the fires of Hell if you're wrong in life? Of course, you may just die and there be nothing, but why chance it?

Or, do you think you can pull me from my agnosticism when nobody else can? Sometimes, I'm jealous of those who can have faith in the LACK o fthe existence of things.

to put things in perspective of where my loyalties lie, I HOPE there is a god, because frankly, I'm scared witless of what's after life, if it's nothing. though, I'm not particularly confident if there -is- a God either.

Commence Three-way discussion.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

man is also not the only animal capable of reason, dogs figure out how to open doors, and i've never seen such excellent escape artists as the hamsters at my pet supplies plus store. there monkeys who can learn language, monkeys have even been known to pick up sticks as weapons(granted they have no idea what "depth perception is" but that's not the point, the idea is there), there are animals every where capable of doing what we do, we just do it better than them. or have a more intricate version of what they do, how does that make us better? i say it's just more experience.

and about agnosticism, i've always held a sort of disgust for the agnostic, as i've viewed it as someone who was not really willing to piss anyone off, so they're not really willing to take a stand one way or another. my biggest beef with any (western) religion out there is the general belief that man is incapable of living a good life unless they are threatened with eternal damnation pain and destruction. i call horse shit to that, i've lived a good life, never killed anyone, granted i haven't really done much in terms of charity, but i've lived quite an honest life. the only thing that the christian god has against me is that i don't believe in christ, so i go to hell. but wait, there are murderers, thieves, rapists, or just corrupt persons in general who firmly believe in christ, and so, as a result, THEIR sins were negated by the great jesus christ and they go to heaven. if this is what our god considers fair, i say nuts to that. i'll disregard him on principle alone. however, that's still no reason to not believe he's there, and i can't really say i do, all i can say as to whether or not he's there is "i can't believe he's there, i've never seen him in my life, all i've seen is churches attempting to exert control on the people." the whole idea of a religion is a little far fetched to me(minus the thought of religion as a means of control.).

[Asaeroth]

I see. Well, that explains a few things.

[johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt]

ummm, tell me how i'm wrong?

[Drychnath]

Yes, indeed. All life is a meaningless and futile pursuit of our hardwired biological programming. Only, you know, we humans are all evil and corrupt because...we're...evil and corrupt, and hurt things, and want power, etc...

Horsemanure.

Mankind is the only creature which feels the drive of ambition. Leading the pack, in the animal kingdom, has nothing to do with achievement at all; it is merely seeking the best means of survival available, which all creatures (including us) are driven to do. Humans, by contrast, are driven to achieve with no motive other than achievement itself. To use Jim's example, wolves do not paint. They do not paint because a painting is devoid of any variety of utilitarian function - but it remains an achievement. Artists paint to achieve an expression; and that is the reason they paint. Painting does not prevent starvation, or ensure you sire children, or protect your territory. Yes, skill with a paintbrush combined with an ability to market can be used for these aims, but that is not a question of the trait being a survival trait, but rather the ability of the artist to use his very achievements to facilitate further achievements by dealing with these other concerns.

Out of curiosity, why not offer an explanation for mathematics, law, art, engineering, indeed civilization in its sum total entirety, ye atheists? It seems from here that every atheist would have to believe, unconditionally, that every single solitary difference between mankind and the rest of the world, including all technologies, individual designs, and events of significance individually, is the product of a statistical anomaly. Just so happens that in all the universe, man was the animal that all this stuff just so happened to happen to. Hmph. I'm never going to understand why it is people dedicate their faith to their own misery, in absolute denail of any kind of intuitive relationship with greater things.