Asaeroth
yah....i spend a lot of time here
2nd Lieutenant
Fire and brimstone are the least of your troubles.
Posts: 140
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Post by Asaeroth on Jan 17, 2005 23:07:10 GMT -5
Hmph. I'm never going to understand why it is people dedicate their faith to their own misery, in absolute denail of any kind of intuitive relationship with greater things. Sometimes, even a small doubt is enough to cause more. But if both sides are doubted, there leaves nothing but doubt which a person may cling to.
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Post by Drychnath on Jan 18, 2005 19:04:25 GMT -5
There are more sides than just two. It fascinates me, betimes, how despite the lack of any evidence to the contrary, people refuse to believe in anything great at all. One would think, left with nothing else, then a person might at least acquire a belief in themself. Yet strangely enough, it seems to me that most atheists spend their time being cynical and depressed. Not all, by any means, but most.
Actually, atheism makes little sense to me at all. Even if there is no force, of any variety, outside humanity's randomly acquired ability to manipulate things, then there should still be some respect for the power of other ideas merely in acknowledgement of what those ideas have motivated people to accomplish. After all, even though a man might deny the existence of God, he cannot possibly deny the awesome power and achievement of His followers. Atheism, by contrast, has accomplished...not a single, solitary thing I can think of. Matter of fact, can't think of much any given atheist has contributed to society at all. What use doubt, when it renders one useless and weak?
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Physicles
I only wanted to say hi
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Posts: 3
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Post by Physicles on Jan 19, 2005 1:46:17 GMT -5
I'd be careful about a blanket statement that no atheist ever has ever contributed anything useful to society. The real question is, why would they bother?
If you're an atheist then, as was said before, you believe the whole universe is the result of a statistical anomaly, and all life is the result of evolution. How could man be superior to the animals? That doesn't make sense. He is a purely physical, biological entity just like them, nothing special. So he's done some amazing things. What should he do, believe in the achievement power of chance?
Life is completely and utterly meaningless if you're an atheist. I don't care what you do while you're "alive", or how many billions of years the universe goes on after you die, eventually it's all going to end and come to nothing. This is a fact. Just like yesterday ended, just like the hour that just passed ended, so will this universe. It's on a bit longer time scale, but it's still FINITE.
Btw, without invoking the spiritual, I submit that man is different from the animals because he has the capacity to love. One man can give up his life for another. Is this out of self-preservation? You could argue that he's acting on what his beliefs say about some higher form of self-preservation. Can you find an animal that does that? Conversely, are there any animals that commit suicide while knowing full well what they're doing? (Lemmings don't count)
I believe that man is unique because he's created in the image of God. He was created to live forever, with a soul. That's how he's different.
The reason a murderer who's a Christian can go to heaven and a "good" non-Christian can go to hell -- (I'm explaining this assuming Chrsitian theology because that's the ONLY context in which it makes sense) -- is that God demands that we be perfect in order to go to heaven. Man was created perfect, in a perfect relationship with God. But what happened? Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden: they decided they wanted to be like God, and so disobeyed him.
Remember, God is all-good: he can do nothing bad (This implies an absolute morality, which he defines by his nature). This includes his giving the command that they should "not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil", which Adam and Eve wrongly disobeyed. God created Adam and Eve with the capacity to be perfect, but they rejected that, and so rejected perfection and the ability to enter heaven by how they behave. This "original sin" as it is called has been passed down from generation to generation. This means that nothing man can ever do, NOTHING, can ever make him perfect again, because he has already sinned. 'Sin' is actually a Greek archery term, which basically means to miss the bullseye.
Why can't God let "good", but imperfect, people into heaven? It's against his nature. It's like God's house is completely clean, and someone wants to come in with mud on themselves. They can try to wipe the mud off, but it's not going to work. God demands perfection. He CAN'T not demand perfection (yes, God can't do some things, like be evil, because they go against his nature). Why does he have to punish sin with hell? That's in his nature too. By sinning, we have all earned death: physical death and eternal separation from God in hell.
See, God has this problem. He loves people, but they rebelled against him. He can't MAKE them love him, because then it's not love. But he wants them to be with him in heaven. But he has to punish the sin, which would mean sending them to hell. What does he do? He sends Jesus to bear the punishment of all of man's sin for them. Then, all one has to do effectively is to say to God "I know I'm a sinner, and I know that nothing I can ever do will get me right with you. I believe that Jesus died to pay for all my sins, and I accept that free gift." So, if one believes that Jesus died for his sins, and accepts him as Savior, and he goes to heaven. If not? That's saying that he's good enough in and of himself to get into heaven. Is anyone perfect? Can anyone get into heaven?
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Post by johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt on Jan 19, 2005 12:27:54 GMT -5
Can anyone get into heaven? according to what you said, yes, anyone can. even the most ruthless killer. honestly, the one hang up i have is that, were i to accept jesus as savior and say "yes, i'm bad, i'm a sinner, thanks for jesus." i'd go to heaven, but heaven would be populated with some of the worst people imaginable because they either believed jesus was savior, or said they did, or whatever, they're still murderers, and rapists. why do they not come to atone for what they've done? seems like an easy way out to me. "here you go, do whatever you want, so long as you believe in jesus at the end it doesn't matter"
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Post by Drychnath on Jan 19, 2005 23:43:47 GMT -5
It seems to me that the problem with going to hell is rather something that is over-exaggerated. A person goes to hell, according to Christian teaching, if they do not accept Christ and/or do not repent their sins before God. I suppose the question I have is, if when you die you go before the Father and the Son for Judgement, you then know that our Father is in Heaven, that His Son is our Savior, and that you have led a sinful and flawed existence. Who, in that position, would refuse God still and not repent? Logically, very few. I would think that whatever this life might be like, if any one of these faiths is correct, then there wouldn't be much trouble with souls falling to hell. Unless they've been utterly corrupted, of course.
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Physicles
I only wanted to say hi
Private
Posts: 3
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Post by Physicles on Jan 21, 2005 0:25:05 GMT -5
The cool thing about heaven is that everyone there is perfect. Though they were sinful in life, they have been "made like Christ" as the Bible says. In heaven, it's not possible to sin.
Why do we not atone for what we've done? Remember, God demands perfection, but nobody is perfect. Even the best people are imperfect; and with regard to getting into heaven by behavior, you're either in or you aren't, and so none of us are better than Hitler. The beauty of Christianity is that you don't have to atone, because Christ already did; all you have to do is believe.
But what about the person who "accepts" Christ, and then goes on knowingly doing wrong? Well, if he had true faith, then good works would follow; so, does he really have faith?
The problem with waiting until after you die to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord is that, by then, it's already too late. To be sure, everyone's going to bow to him when he comes again, but to those who didn't believe in him in life he will say, "I don't know you." And they'll be out of luck.
All of life is a choice. You either choose to accept Christ, or you choose to reject him.
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DarkNeopagan
damn i love posting here!
1st Sargeant
"One case, One kill" Broadsword Motto
Posts: 185
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Post by DarkNeopagan on Jan 23, 2005 13:46:09 GMT -5
Here is my beef with monotheistic religions; they all threaten eternal damnation for non-believers. If you do not live the life dictated to you in a holy book you will burn forever. God loves you, but if you don’t do as your told it's eternal hellfire! What a load of crap! I believe if you try to do "good" and what you find in your heart to be morally right you will be just fine. I was once a devout Christian and every time I did something wrong I found myself wondering what would happen to me when I die, then one day I realized that I believed out of fear that I might go to hell. This made no sense to me, why would a god who loves all even have a hell. If he is omniscient as claimed why would he create Lucifer if he knew he would rebel, why would he let him around Adam and Eve if he knew they would fall to temptation. So either we were set up for failure from the start or it is a load of crap. However, I cannot bring myself to believe there is nothing after this life. Mankind (in general) has had one belief or another about what happens when we die. I no longer believe in Heaven and Hell. I am no longer scared of what might happen to me if I don't live by some ancient code of conduct. I do not have the time to go over all of my personal beliefs and all of the problems I see with the church. If you wish to read more about my views on the afterlife pick up “Speak with the Dead: 7 Methods for Spirit Communication” or “Nocturnal Witchcraft: Magick After Dark” both by Konstantinos, and start with the first.
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Arcadian
you people are kinda cool
Staff Sargeant Sniper
My kingdom for a save point!
Posts: 37
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Post by Arcadian on Jan 28, 2005 20:32:11 GMT -5
Yay hairless apes! Look at all the awesome stuff we've done! I love this world full of killing and blood spilling that our ancestors have worked so hard for! WE RULE!
Oi. Let the galaxy burn.
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DarkNeopagan
damn i love posting here!
1st Sargeant
"One case, One kill" Broadsword Motto
Posts: 185
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Post by DarkNeopagan on Jan 29, 2005 15:30:47 GMT -5
The Christian god demands that we grovel and beg and belittle ourselves to the point that we render ourselves incapable of doing anything for ourselves. The bible has been translated and retranslated so many times by the very orginization that says you should give them your money and respect. They called all the shots on what should and shouldn't go into the bible, what the translations do or should mean, talk about one sided. While paganism has been around since the begining of civilization, shamens, medicine men, spiritual healers, they were almost all killed by the christian inquisition for not conforming. The most warring religions in the world are christianity, judaisim, and muslim. I mean look at the middle east, it is one big warzone.
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PoeticInjustice
more magical than the magicalest
teh cut3 on3's bitch
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Posts: 300
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Post by PoeticInjustice on Jan 30, 2005 11:21:50 GMT -5
there's a *huge* difference between God demanding something, and the church demanding something
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DarkNeopagan
damn i love posting here!
1st Sargeant
"One case, One kill" Broadsword Motto
Posts: 185
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Post by DarkNeopagan on Jan 30, 2005 12:53:24 GMT -5
According to the bible, controlled and translated by the church.
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PoeticInjustice
more magical than the magicalest
teh cut3 on3's bitch
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Posts: 300
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Post by PoeticInjustice on Jan 31, 2005 1:06:55 GMT -5
that's my point, don't blame God for the rather fallible humans running the churches
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Post by johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt on Jan 31, 2005 12:05:05 GMT -5
so what on earth are we supposed to believe? "god's message" has changed so much over the years, we, people, humans, decided what all should be included into the bible and what shouldn't, how, leaving even one little thing out could change the whole meaning of the bible. forgetting to put in one simple thing could change the whole meaning. how are we supposed to know what to believe?
on another note, yet another problem i have with God is that he expects everyone to believe in him, and yet, for centuries, there were people who'd never even heard his name, am i to believe that these people were sent to hell simply because they had no chance to learn of the right god? i say pshaw to that, <sarcasm>no...god doesn't play favorites at alllllll </sarcasm>
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DarkNeopagan
damn i love posting here!
1st Sargeant
"One case, One kill" Broadsword Motto
Posts: 185
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Post by DarkNeopagan on Jan 31, 2005 17:37:40 GMT -5
that's my point, don't blame God for the rather fallible humans running the churches I don't blame the god i belive in, but rather the church for manipulating people for centries. although the god the church depicts and the god i believe in are two totally different biengs. but everyone is entitled to their own belifs, my beef is with the power hungry church.
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Post by Drychnath on Feb 1, 2005 14:09:42 GMT -5
Protestant heretic. You know, it says somewhere in the Bible that to change one word is to invite disaster. The Protestant movements begin; they cut three books from the Bible; then we have the Black Death (33% of Europe dies). Then the 30 Years War (25% of Europe dies). Then Franco-Prussian War, Napoleonic Wars, WWI, and WWII. Way to go, Protestants. You'll note the serious shit didn't hit the fan 'til they kept the Holy Mother from guiding their affairs... There is no Salvation outside the Church!
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