Post by Drychnath on Aug 18, 2005 11:52:48 GMT -5
Seeing as I felt my game-geek credentials were lacking lately, I've decided to engage in that geekiest of past times: arguing fluff through an electronic medium.
Chosen Topic = Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe
So those of us who play are likely familiar with Pike's recent little rants on the Dark Angels being heretics and traitors. This position arises from this book (and it's evidently a common thing - I've seen similar opinions on Inquisitor boards, in particular), and not to put too fine a point on it, I disagree with these conclusions.
To begin, the book really isn't good. The whole story is predicated on the fear, doubt, and waffling beliefs of a Space Marine Chaplain, of the Dark Angels Chapter, no less. One would think that such a personage would be better equipped to deal with harsh truths and dark secrets. It is there entire purpose in life.
Secondly, the author fails to do justice to the Space Marines in general, in my opinion. Many references are made to indomitable faith, unquestioning obedience, ruthless dispatch, and depthless zeal. The only Space Marine characters we meet, however, tend to similarly be doubtful and unsure. On a related note, they encounter impertinence and occasionally outright disobedience from just about every non-Space Marine in the book - including those whose only purpose is service of the Dark Angels Chapter - despite frequent references to the mythic awe non-Space Marines supposedly hold them in. The formalities of addressing superiors, underlings, by title, etc. are woefully inadequate and inconsistent. Most times the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy officials the Chaplain interacted with merely spoke, with neither honorific nor deference.
About the only part of the book I really liked was the interrogation of the imprisoned Fallen Angel; I felt this was closer to consistent with other background in terms of conduct, and I liked the way they handled the discussions and the information presented - Gav did a good job of making the flaws in the apparent argument subtle but still available to the reader, and managed to draw attention to them with the Chaplain's questions and accusations without outlining them specifically.
It remains a recommended read, if for no other reason that you draw the correct conclusion from the book and come to the defense of those poor, beleagered Dark Angels players. Plus, it's an unnusually sophisticated approach to the subtler aspects of corruption.
By the way, Trevor: you neglected to grab the book while you were at my house. If nothing else, I'll drop it off with you before I leave.
To the debate itself:
The Fallen Angel contends the following (not all contentions made, but a few of the sharpest):
1) That the Dark Angels on Caliban were the first betrayed by the rest of their Legion when they were attacked by the "new Legion" (those Dark Angels created after Lion El'johnson assumed command) elements of the garrison.
2) That Lion El'johnson, as opposed to being delayed by the traitor forces enroute to Terra, deliberately slowed his advance to determine the victor during the Heresy.
3) That Luther was acting in the interests of the Emperor, which were contrary to the interests of the Primarch, by turning the Dark Angels on Caliban against the rest of their Legion.
4) That the Great Crusade was not an event, but "a state of being", commanded by the Emperor.
5) That the Dark Angels owe no fealty but to the Emperor, and that they have no obligations but to obey His will.
These things have been taken as the real truth by those who support the Fallen Angel's position. My responses are (spoiler warning):
1) The Dark Angels serving Luther and Astellan were attacked by the younger members of the Legion on the planet when they planned to abandon it to go fight in the wars during the Heresy, despite the Primarch's command that they were to guard Caliban. This is clearly treason on the part of Luther and the Old Legion under Astellan's command - they were disobeying an order of their Primarch, which is as the word of the Emperor (so spake the Emperor).
2) One wonders why this accusation is layed only at Lion El'johnson's door, when the Ultramarines suffered a similar setback. Both of these Legions were enroute but delayed, and yet the Lion is condemned by Astellan as an opportunistic traitor, whereas he holds up Roboute Guilliman as an example of the perfect Primarch.
3) Luther was not even a Space Marine; he had been elevated beyond a normal man, but could not endergo the complete transformation. One wonders then, where he got the power to resist a Primarch in combat? Also, Astellan himself offers ample testimony of Luther's unhappiness that he could not become a Space Marine and join the Lion in battle amongst the stars. Astellan himself said he was bitter and disaffected by being "banished" to Caliban (for, I will note, disobeying the direct order of his Primarch). Astellan justified leaving Caliban by saying the Primarch's will was unclear - despite having been commanded to garrison Caliban and receiving nothing even remotely approximating a wish to the contrary.
4) The Great Crusade was not a doctrine or a "state of being", as Astellan called it. It was series of specific plans of action on the Emperor's part. It was the Emperor's Will that the stars be conquered, and He commanded His legions to advance into space bearing his will. However, it was the Space Marines under his command who referred to it as the Great Crusade (reference Codex: Space Marines). Towards the end of the Crusade, the Emperor Himself returned to Terra to see to the administration of His realm. When the Emperor was confined to the Golden Throne, He no longer commanded expeditions beyond the frontiers, and the loyalists who remained had to consolidate His realm without His guidance. What use sending humanity to conquer more of the stars when they lose what ones they already hold behind them? To look to the security of the Imperium is no disobedience to the Emperor's will.
5) Astellan said that the Dark Angels had lost their way, and that a Space Marine's concern and obligation was obedience to the Emperor's will and to protect his subjects. He contended that the introduction of the Primarchs corrupted the Legions, for they obeyed one not the Emperor. This ignores the fact that the Emperor commanded that this should be so; ignores that the Emperor gave over the conduct of the Great Crusades to his Primarchs; ignores that the Primarchs were the Emperor's own sons, and favored servants. It would seem to be Astellan's position that Space Marines are bound to obey the Emperor - excepting where the Emperor's command removes them from being first in His eyes. Obedience to the Primarchs was obedience to the Emperor. He commanded that they speak with His words - and so it was. But not for the bitter and jealous Astellan and his progeny. Lastly, service to the Chapter and Primarch, and actions taken to preserve the existence and honor of these things, is also service to the Emperor. Without the Space Marine Chapters, the Imperium would quickly flounder and be destroyed by those who seek to prey upon it. Therefore any action taken to preserve these foremost servants of the Emperor and their organizations, even at the expense of whole worlds of civilians, is justified, even required by duty. Fealty to Chapter and Primarch does not replace fealty to the Emperor: fealty to the Emperor is through fealty to Chapter and Primarch.
Chosen Topic = Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe
So those of us who play are likely familiar with Pike's recent little rants on the Dark Angels being heretics and traitors. This position arises from this book (and it's evidently a common thing - I've seen similar opinions on Inquisitor boards, in particular), and not to put too fine a point on it, I disagree with these conclusions.
To begin, the book really isn't good. The whole story is predicated on the fear, doubt, and waffling beliefs of a Space Marine Chaplain, of the Dark Angels Chapter, no less. One would think that such a personage would be better equipped to deal with harsh truths and dark secrets. It is there entire purpose in life.
Secondly, the author fails to do justice to the Space Marines in general, in my opinion. Many references are made to indomitable faith, unquestioning obedience, ruthless dispatch, and depthless zeal. The only Space Marine characters we meet, however, tend to similarly be doubtful and unsure. On a related note, they encounter impertinence and occasionally outright disobedience from just about every non-Space Marine in the book - including those whose only purpose is service of the Dark Angels Chapter - despite frequent references to the mythic awe non-Space Marines supposedly hold them in. The formalities of addressing superiors, underlings, by title, etc. are woefully inadequate and inconsistent. Most times the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy officials the Chaplain interacted with merely spoke, with neither honorific nor deference.
About the only part of the book I really liked was the interrogation of the imprisoned Fallen Angel; I felt this was closer to consistent with other background in terms of conduct, and I liked the way they handled the discussions and the information presented - Gav did a good job of making the flaws in the apparent argument subtle but still available to the reader, and managed to draw attention to them with the Chaplain's questions and accusations without outlining them specifically.
It remains a recommended read, if for no other reason that you draw the correct conclusion from the book and come to the defense of those poor, beleagered Dark Angels players. Plus, it's an unnusually sophisticated approach to the subtler aspects of corruption.
By the way, Trevor: you neglected to grab the book while you were at my house. If nothing else, I'll drop it off with you before I leave.
To the debate itself:
The Fallen Angel contends the following (not all contentions made, but a few of the sharpest):
1) That the Dark Angels on Caliban were the first betrayed by the rest of their Legion when they were attacked by the "new Legion" (those Dark Angels created after Lion El'johnson assumed command) elements of the garrison.
2) That Lion El'johnson, as opposed to being delayed by the traitor forces enroute to Terra, deliberately slowed his advance to determine the victor during the Heresy.
3) That Luther was acting in the interests of the Emperor, which were contrary to the interests of the Primarch, by turning the Dark Angels on Caliban against the rest of their Legion.
4) That the Great Crusade was not an event, but "a state of being", commanded by the Emperor.
5) That the Dark Angels owe no fealty but to the Emperor, and that they have no obligations but to obey His will.
These things have been taken as the real truth by those who support the Fallen Angel's position. My responses are (spoiler warning):
1) The Dark Angels serving Luther and Astellan were attacked by the younger members of the Legion on the planet when they planned to abandon it to go fight in the wars during the Heresy, despite the Primarch's command that they were to guard Caliban. This is clearly treason on the part of Luther and the Old Legion under Astellan's command - they were disobeying an order of their Primarch, which is as the word of the Emperor (so spake the Emperor).
2) One wonders why this accusation is layed only at Lion El'johnson's door, when the Ultramarines suffered a similar setback. Both of these Legions were enroute but delayed, and yet the Lion is condemned by Astellan as an opportunistic traitor, whereas he holds up Roboute Guilliman as an example of the perfect Primarch.
3) Luther was not even a Space Marine; he had been elevated beyond a normal man, but could not endergo the complete transformation. One wonders then, where he got the power to resist a Primarch in combat? Also, Astellan himself offers ample testimony of Luther's unhappiness that he could not become a Space Marine and join the Lion in battle amongst the stars. Astellan himself said he was bitter and disaffected by being "banished" to Caliban (for, I will note, disobeying the direct order of his Primarch). Astellan justified leaving Caliban by saying the Primarch's will was unclear - despite having been commanded to garrison Caliban and receiving nothing even remotely approximating a wish to the contrary.
4) The Great Crusade was not a doctrine or a "state of being", as Astellan called it. It was series of specific plans of action on the Emperor's part. It was the Emperor's Will that the stars be conquered, and He commanded His legions to advance into space bearing his will. However, it was the Space Marines under his command who referred to it as the Great Crusade (reference Codex: Space Marines). Towards the end of the Crusade, the Emperor Himself returned to Terra to see to the administration of His realm. When the Emperor was confined to the Golden Throne, He no longer commanded expeditions beyond the frontiers, and the loyalists who remained had to consolidate His realm without His guidance. What use sending humanity to conquer more of the stars when they lose what ones they already hold behind them? To look to the security of the Imperium is no disobedience to the Emperor's will.
5) Astellan said that the Dark Angels had lost their way, and that a Space Marine's concern and obligation was obedience to the Emperor's will and to protect his subjects. He contended that the introduction of the Primarchs corrupted the Legions, for they obeyed one not the Emperor. This ignores the fact that the Emperor commanded that this should be so; ignores that the Emperor gave over the conduct of the Great Crusades to his Primarchs; ignores that the Primarchs were the Emperor's own sons, and favored servants. It would seem to be Astellan's position that Space Marines are bound to obey the Emperor - excepting where the Emperor's command removes them from being first in His eyes. Obedience to the Primarchs was obedience to the Emperor. He commanded that they speak with His words - and so it was. But not for the bitter and jealous Astellan and his progeny. Lastly, service to the Chapter and Primarch, and actions taken to preserve the existence and honor of these things, is also service to the Emperor. Without the Space Marine Chapters, the Imperium would quickly flounder and be destroyed by those who seek to prey upon it. Therefore any action taken to preserve these foremost servants of the Emperor and their organizations, even at the expense of whole worlds of civilians, is justified, even required by duty. Fealty to Chapter and Primarch does not replace fealty to the Emperor: fealty to the Emperor is through fealty to Chapter and Primarch.